HOUSTON, Texas – After the historic conviction and sentencing of former Houston Police Department narcotics officer Gerald Goines, KPRC 2 Investigates Reporter Mario Diaz stood outside the Harding Street home for an exclusive chat with Harris County District Attorney Kim Ogg.
Here’s a breakdown of the questions Mario asked the District Attorney:
Q: It’s now gray. Before it was white, you had all of the memorials up. It’s no longer there. The change, though, is kind of symbolic, because the Tuttles, and the way they’re portrayed, have changed completely because of this trial.
A: That was the single most important thing to the surviving family members, that they clear their loved ones names. That they put out to the people of Harris County, that Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas, they called her Reggie, respected police... weren’t anti-cop, weren’t drug dealers, weren’t folks who were hated by the community. Just the opposite. And I think that’s important to remember when you think about what is justice. Gerald Goines is going to prison for life, but they have to live with their loss too.
Q: This is the first time an HPD officer has been convicted of murder. It’s bittersweet?
A: Well, it’s not the first time that a citizen has been shot by a Houston police officer. We’ve just seen lesser verdicts, and the relevance and importance of what this jury did, shows that we’re done when it comes to corruption in police work among public officials. The community is fed up, and they’re not going to give them a pass anymore.
Q: How significant was this verdict?
A: It’s a historic verdict, and it’s a verdict by the people. For the people, literally. We love Houston police. I think they’re fairly popular among our citizens. I really do. One bad cop goes a long way in destroying our public’s trust and faith in the system. It dismays prosecutors. We find juries have historically been forgiving of cops who shot people. And this idea that we’re going to try the victim, that the victims really are at fault. I think that’s been clearly rejected by the jury, and in general, in police shooting cases.
Q: You took a lot of criticism for this from HPD and from others. Now that you’ve got this victory, do you feel vindicated?
A: We always had evidence to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Gerald Goines was guilty. And I think this is almost an exoneration for our prosecutors who had the courage to move forward and investigate, not just Goines and Bryant, but all the other police involved. I feel like I did my job, Mario. And whether vindication is rightfully mine. I don’t accept criticism from people when it comes to decisions about whether to move forward on cases, whether it’s against police officers or politicians. I have proven that. I think we give the power to grand juries. We bring them all the evidence, and we actually let Houstonians choose. I ran on that. I’ve lived here all my life. I lived in this East End for 14 years. And so, I care about our justice system and I want people to trust police and I want crime victims respected. It’s not their fault that cops burst in the middle of the afternoon on a false warrant. All crafted by Gerald Goines. To what? Rack up another arrest? Just like he had done for 20 years. Until our police department stops counting numbers and starts determining whether their actions make an area safer. I think we’re going to see these repeated problems in drug enforcement. I want that to change. And so, is that vindication, seeing a change by a jury when before cops who shot people and got probation or no billed or not guilty? Yeah, it’s our community saying we always wanted justice for innocent people and we want our cops to do right. And most of them do. But these folks, there was a major problem here on Harding Street, and I think the whole neighborhood ought to feel vindicated.
Q: What part of the trial stood out the most for you?
A: You know, Otis Mallet spent eight and a half years in prison for a crime he didn’t commit. He was framed by Gerald Goines. The son of Dennis Tuttle testified at the conclusion about the impact of his father’s murder and his stepmother’s murder had on their whole family. Those are moments I’ll never forget. I think it also took courage for the police officers who supervised and knew Gerald Goins for years, to tell the truth about him. And so, it’s moments when witnesses are really authentic in front of a jury. That’s what people remember. And that’s what I think is important to remember.
Q: What did you see in Gerald Goines when they finally sentenced him?
A: I see Gerald Goines as a master manipulator. He’s had people fooled for years. Meanwhile, he had thrown down weapons, drugs to plant on people, intimate relationships with his confidential informants, all of the things that we know to be major red flags about public corruption. But he was smooth.
Q: But when you saw him in the courtroom like I did, and you heard this story of this legendary figure as it was portrayed by the former chief of the department, a hero, a great guy. And you see this shell of a man standing there getting his sentence. What went through your mind?
A: Well, I don’t see Gerald Goines as a shell. I see him as somebody whose manipulation has come to an end and his luck has run out. The community spoken. He received a 60-year verdict and a $10,000 fine in both cases. That’s an exclamation point by a jury. I think it’s time he faced his destiny. I mean, you do bad. You frame people. People die as a result who are innocent. I don’t see him as a shell. I see him as a perpetrator that now this community’s free. Then all of Houston is free. I think our streets are safer with him behind bars.
Q: And when they argue the community is safer with him in the community? Nicole, Deborde said the community is safer with Gerald Goines not going to prison.
A: You must be kidding. Framing innocent people, resulting in folks murders when he lied on warrants before judges and manipulating the whole system. For what? I think this neighborhood would tell you they’re glad Gerald Goines is behind bars and they’re looking to see what other officers are going to be held accountable.
Q: How involved were you behind the scenes with this prosecution?
A: From day one. We get notice immediately upon something like this happening. So I got a phone call. I worked with our intake division, our special crimes lawyers and our civil rights team as they watched the investigation unfold. We were not the lead investigators. HPD was. I was involved with the civil rights team as the police focused on Goines. Then they focused on Bryant, who covered up Goines misdeeds on the lies about the confidential informant and helped plant the drugs. Then when HPD did not want to further investigate Squad 15, we moved forward. We talked to the Rangers. I worked with my staff, and our team really had to take it from there. It’s hard to get cops to investigate cops, Mario. It’s hard to get prosecutors who are willing to take on these cases against guys that we work with daily. So I was very involved. I met with our team weekly. It was led by Natasha Sinclair, an excellent lawyer, and I had good supporting lawyers. They did the work. Our investigators moved forward and when these indictments came down, I thought they were extremely significant. So I stayed with the case all along. When we were criticized heavily for the delay, when in truth, that’s a court’s job is to move a case forward. You know, I take the heat for those things and I’m supposed to take the heat. I’m the D.A., on the other hand. Courts have to be responsible for what they’re responsible for bond scheduling and ultimately giving somebody a fair trial. We finally got that. I think Houston ought to be relieved. It’s the most historic verdict we’ve had. And it doesn’t say HPD is bad. It says we take out the bad cops when we find them and we show no mercy as Houstonians because our community is worth more than that.
Q: You look at it and you say all for what?
A: For ducks. You know, that’s what they call it in the police department. Racking up arrest. They call it counting ducks. It’s the wrong way to handle enforcement. What would make a community safer by doing a no-knock warrant on this house? Seriously? I mean, it’s just such overkill. In Third Ward, you know, my first assistant, Vivian King, represented somebody who had been shot by Goines. She reports he was a known element in the community. I don’t know if you talk to people. Harvey Clemons over in the Fifth Ward told me that he was he was known. I think that’s what’s ending, is somebody’s ability to just do what they want with their authority with no repercussions.
Q: At one point throughout the trial, it was brought up in the trial. And this was key for a lot of people. You had the former chief of police ordered the body cams get turned off. Looking back on that action, do you feel frustration. Do you feel anger because your team could have used some of that video to try to help piece this together? But he said turn it off.
A: Prosecution rests on the evidence that exists. What could have been or might have been is never our point. We focused on Gerald Goines. We focused on the police officer’s actions. Additional evidence always helps.
Q: Why this house? Why this couple?
A: That’s the question that Dennis Tuttle, son Ryan, asked. Gerald Goins.
Q: Will Houstonians ever get the truth about what happened inside that house?
A: We got the truth. Why it happened is what remains unclear. We know that Goins sought the warrant purposely against this house. We know that there was information falsely called in by one of the neighbors. And that perfect storm brought a jump-out crew.
